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+--- Thread: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful (/Thread-Freedom-Of-Religion-Is-Obsolete-Superseded-And-Harmful)
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Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - Rick - Jul 03, 2014
![[Image: jeanne-darc-execution-237x133.jpg]](https://falkvinge.net/files/2014/07/jeanne-darc-execution-237x133.jpg)
Freedom of religion was intended to guarantee freedom from governmental persecution because of private beliefs. Today, that freedom has been twisted and perverted into instead creating persecution against individuals, backed up by governmental force. It is time to abolish it as archaic and obsolete, and let the modern freedoms of opinion and speech take its place.
The recent case in the reactionary United States, where the corporation Hobby Lobby was allowed to deny healthcare to its (female) employees based on a reactionary superstitious idea that such healthcare for women should not exist at all, shows how freedom of religion is now used to create governmentally-enforced persecution and oppression, rather than freedom from such persecution and oppression.
In the Middle Ages, a different religion from the king and queen was no different from a subversive political opinion was no different from terrorism, and would get you tortured and killed. After a few centuries of that, “freedom of religion” was established to cement in stone that the government couldn’t persecute you for privately held opinions.
Today, the government doesn’t persecute you no matter whether you are praying for salvation to our All-Seing Allfather Odin on his majestic eight-legged steed, or to His Holy Noodliness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You may even believe that the Earth was created by your invisible friend or that the moon is made of fine cheese, all without persecution from the government. This is covered by freedom of opinion.
Further, freedom of speech makes sure that you have the right to express whatever strange beliefs you hold in whatever form you like (but not on any platform you like or with any audience you like, which is a common misconception: you can’t force anybody to listen to you, nor force anybody else to carry or repeat your expression).
The rights to hold any belief you like and to tell others about that belief are fully covered by the freedoms of opinion and speech. They have completely superseded the original freedom of religion.
You have the complete freedom to believe that the moon is made of Emmenthaler Cheese (freedom of opinion) without being persecuted by the government. You also have the full right to argue with your neighbor, who believes the moon is made of Gouda Cheese instead, about this (freedom of speech), without governmental persecution for doing so.
Your right to hold this belief, however, does absolutely not entitle you to re-label Emmenthaler cheeses at your local supermarket, where you work, as “Authentic Holy Moon Cheese”, and to call in the government to enforce this opinion of yours against your employer’s business. This is how “freedom of religion” is being *****d today, and much worse:
- The abovementioned case where an employer denies healthcare to female employees, using governmental force to back that denial up
- Employees who refuse to shake hands with female customers (yes, these exist)
- Abortion nurses who refuse to perform abortions “for beliefs”, including when lives are at risk
- People who refuse to work with X (lotteries, pork, hot dogs, whatever) because of “beliefs” and demand to stay on unemployment benefits instead
- Refusal to follow hygiene procedures in food/healthcare because of “beliefs”
- Teachers who refuse to allow students (citizens!) to critically examine the information they’ve been given
- Parents who do the same to their *****ren (also citizens!)
- …and don’t get me started on infant/toddler genital mutilation, male and female alike. Your right to believe whatever crazy*****ery you want will never, ever, extend to any insane right to cut into the flesh of another citizen and deliberately remove functional tissue, regardless of DNA similarity.
- …the list goes on.
Freedom of religion was intended to allow you to believe whatever you wanted. It was never intended to legitimize people behaving like assholes against fellow humans and claiming they have a governmentally-backed right to behave like assholes without consequences, because of some weird opinion they hold.
In particular, freedom of religion was never intended to exempt somebody from the law.
Freedom of Religion is used to persecute individuals once again, using governmental threat of force to back up such persecution. It is time to abolish it in name and concept, and instead let the Freedoms of Opinion and Speech carry on its original intention.
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RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - kapri25 - Jul 07, 2014
I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Here is a lot of reasons why this would be difficult. One, most people only have a passing interest these days in their rights. They only care about their immediate issues. American Idol, the favorite band, the next party, work, etc. If they are not effected by it in any way than it is not their problem. Kind of like the media stories on how most liberals will not vote here in the U.S. because of disinterest. A majority of people are lazy.
Two, people do care but ride the fence because of fear or a belief that somehow they need to be peace and loving about it like some idiotic hippie(pathetic). The fear comes from the belief of offending someone. I may hurt someone's feelings type B.S. or that they need to take some misguided higher ground because any fomr of violence does not help the situation. On that note let me rant here for a second. The extreme religious right (Muslims, Christians(yes Christians), Jews, etc.) do not care about any form of peace overtures. Unless you are useful to the cause than you are nothing but dead weight to be gotten rid of. Listen to the statements of any extreme Muslim, Christian, etc and you will find the same statement over and over again. Die blasphemer. This is their stance to the world around them and if people cannot see this than they are ignorant blind fools.
Third and the saddest, there is not enough of us looking for freedom from religion to stand up to it. You have crap loads of people willing to step up for the rights of the LGBT community or illegal immigrants. For workers rights. But for religion? Nope. Not too many people take a stand for that though we suffer the same indignation as others. Things will not change until these three things change. I wish it were different but alas...tis not to be.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - ViperScale - Jul 08, 2014
There is no such thing as complete freedom.
I am sorry but everyone has views about something being wrong and right. Just because you don't agree with someone else's views you think it makes it obsolete etc. There is no difference in you believing murder is wrong and a religion believing that some healthcare thing is wrong. What makes your freedom any greater than theirs?
You can say whatever you want about me taking it to an extreme with murder but that is ultimately what it comes down to. Just most beliefs are not that extreme.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - Gedankenzement - Jul 08, 2014
"Crazy*****ery"...I like that word. Wonder if SCIENCE, which by the way still enables 99% of all murder and oppression in the world, falls under this category as well.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - System Folder - Jul 08, 2014
(Jul 08, 2014, 00:34 am)ViperScale Wrote: There is no such thing as complete freedom.
I am sorry but everyone has views about something being wrong and right. Just because you don't agree with someone else's views you think it makes it obsolete etc. There is no difference in you believing murder is wrong and a religion believing that some healthcare thing is wrong. What makes your freedom any greater than theirs?
You can say whatever you want about me taking it to an extreme with murder but that is ultimately what it comes down to. Just most beliefs are not that extreme.
You did not take it to an extreme, because there are some religions that believe that murder is not wrong.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - Radical91 - Jul 08, 2014
@Rick, Are you aware that your facts are incorrect and are you interested in having a debate?
I ask because from my experience when I try to engage in a real debate with somebody from a different point of view, they generally aren't interested in the truth or facts, whatever they maybe, nor are they interested in doing their own homework. Usually what I find is they simply repeat rhetoric headlines from left or right commentators and present them as factual.
So my question again is, was your intent to have a discussion or contribute to conspiracy theories and propaganda, because I am assuming that you are aware that you are presenting false information, in turn lying to those who read your posts, therefore I'd like to challenge you.
kindly,
Radical91
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - NIK - Jul 08, 2014
I don't expect anyone would be interested in wasting time "debating" with someone who begins with no facts OR opinions about the topic at hand, merely unsubstantiated accusations and personal insults.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - Radical91 - Jul 09, 2014
@NIK, If you were referring to myself, you are incorrect, I included the fact that Rick's data was false, that is a fact lol. But you are correct on my presumptuous attitude, and I agree with you that it was rather insulting.
Is it less insulting if I was right about him though?
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - norcalnative2014 - Jul 13, 2014
(Jul 03, 2014, 19:17 pm)Rick Wrote: the corporation Hobby Lobby was allowed to deny healthcare to its (female) employees based on a reactionary superstitious idea that such healthcare for women should not exist at all
That is absolutely not true.
Female Hobby Lobby employees still have healthcare coverage. What is not covered are a few "procedures"/"medications" that are highly objectionable to the beliefs of the family which owns Hobby Lobby.
Hobby Lobby (nor any other health insurance) doesn't cover condoms, either, so there is really no argument.
I won't address any other points in the OP, other than to say Communism also claimed that freedom of religion was "obsolete" and "harmful." Tens of millions of died.
RE: Freedom Of Religion Is Obsolete, Superseded, And Harmful - ViperScale - Jul 15, 2014
The biggest problem is people like to say religious beliefs like people who don't believe in god don't have a belief.
The conversation really should be changed to world view beliefs, because that is really what it comes down to. It doesn't matter whether you believe in a god, a spaghetti monster, or the world magically appearing from nowhere. None of the beliefs can be proven and they all effect how you look at the world and what you believe is good and bad.